How does a parent teach their kids healthy skills and positive ideas when it comes to food? What can you do to help your kids develop basic critical thinking when it comes to finding information on the internet? Why should you be proactive in talking with kids about bodily changes? In this podcast episode, Dr. Cristina Castagnini speaks about how parents can foster healthy body images for their children with Charlotte Markey.

MEET CHARLOTTE MARKEY

Charlotte Markey, Ph.D., is a professor of psychology and founding director of the Health Sciences Center at Rutgers University (Camden). Dr. Markey writes monthly for U.S. News and World Report (Eat + Run blog), Psychology Today (Smart People Don’t Diet blog), as well as other publications, focusing on individuals’ eating behaviors, body image, and health.

Her research has garnered widespread media attention, and she has been featured in and interviewed by The New York Times, The Economist, US News and World Report.  She also conducts seminars, talks, and presentations to hundreds of people a year, primarily in the tri-state area.  Both her teaching and research have received awards, including the Chancellor’s Teaching Award, the Faculty Scholar-Teacher Award, and the Annual Faculty Fellowship at Rutgers University.

Visit Charlotte Markey's website and The Body Image Book For Girls. Connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

IN THIS PODCAST

  • Teaching your kids good skills
  • Parenting children through natural body changes
  • Be proactive
  • Find what’s true and real above the noise

Teaching your kids good skills

There’s a lot of conflicting information and a lot of misinformation in public spaces about nutrition and a lot of rigidity in terms of how people think about feeding kids. (Charlotte Markey)
Teaching your children how to have a healthy relationship with food and eating habits is one of the biggest challenges that parents face. So much has changed in society over the last few decades that the way today’s parents were brought up is very different from the environment that their young children are raised in.
And so that requires a real reframing for many of us and when we approach our own kids … most parents I talk to want to do that reframing and think about this [in different ways]. (Charlotte Markey)

Parenting children through natural body changes

One of the best pieces of advice that Charlotte offers parents is to encourage them to speak with their kids before the body changes occur.
To start to talk about health issues and even issues about puberty before it’s relevant because … it’s easier. When it’s happening [in reality] there’s a lot more emotion I think for both parents and kids. (Charlotte Markey)
It’s not that you’re necessarily having the talk with kids that young, but essentially you are normalizing changes that happen because they are, in fact, normal. Make the discussions about taking care of bodies, and that they change, and how to take care of yourself a normal and natural occurrence in your household.

Be proactive

Children are naturally curious. They want to learn about the world and understand new things, especially things that interest their peers or the “older kids” that they might look up to. Rather be proactive in teaching your children healthier, more loving, and compassionate ways to view the world, their bodies, and the bodies of others than leaving them to learn about those things from someone else who might be less kind or open-minded.
Where do you get reliable information? Our kids are Googling this stuff to understand their own anatomy, and you don’t want your kid Googling “penis” or something [because] they’re going to get a lot of things you don’t want. (Charlotte Markey)
Body anatomy in books designed to teach younger teenagers and older children about their bodies is far tamer than what is out there on the internet. Equip your child with a healthier outlook on life and body by having these discussions with them sooner rather than later.

Find what’s true and real above the noise

Be mindful of the internet. It is a great tool that can be used to gather a wide range of interesting information, but there is also very little regulation, and almost anyone can say anything on there that they want to.
I think there’s some good information on TikTok, I’m not going to lie, I think that kids are better informed than a lot of things because they have easy access to information – but there’s also a lot of bad information … and [kids’] brains are not very good at ignoring something that seems flashy or that they want to believe. (Charlotte Markey)
Teach your children critical thinking and how to pick up on false news, and misinformation, and generally not to just blindly believe everything that they see, read, or hear. This is also something parents should learn too! However, practice being perceptive. Is this information genuine, fact-checked, and true? Or is the source trying to get you to buy something or has a bias?

USEFUL LINKS

MEET DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI

  I am a licensed Psychologist and Certified Eating Disorder Specialist. While I may have over 20 years of clinical experience, what I also have is the experience of having been a patient who had an eating disorder as well. One thing that I never had during all of my treatment was someone who could look me in the eye and honestly say to me "hey, I've been there. I understand". Going through treatment for an eating disorder is one of the hardest and scariest things to do. I remember being asked to do things that scared me. Things I now know ultimately helped me to get better. But, at the time, I had serious doubts and fears about it. If even one of my providers had been able to tell me "I know it's scary, but I had to go through that part too. Here's what will probably happen...." then perhaps I would not have gone in and out of treatment so many times. My own experience ultimately led me to specialize in treating eating disorders. I wanted to be the therapist I never had; the one who "got it". I will be giving you my perspective and information as an expert and clinician who has been treating patients for over 2 decades. But don't just take my word for it...keep listening to hear the truly informative insights and knowledge guest experts have to share. I am so happy you are here!

THANKS FOR LISTENING

Did you enjoy this podcast? Feel free to comment below and share this podcast on social media! You can also leave a review of Behind The Bite on Apple Podcasts (previously) iTunes and subscribe!

Podcast Transcription

[DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Behind the Bite Podcast is part of a network of podcasts that are good for the world. Check out podcasts like the Full of Shift podcast, After the First Marriage podcast and Eating Recovery Academy over at practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to Behind the Bite Podcast. This podcast is about the real-life struggles women face with food, body image and weight. We're here to help you inspire and create better healthier lives. Welcome. Hello everyone. Welcome to the show. I really just want to get into the show today. There is a lot to talk about and we have a fantastic guest who is here to talk about what it's like for boys and girls today because so many are dissatisfied with their bodies and at such a young age if you're dissatisfied with your body, it can really lead to serious problems including depression and eating disorders. And our guest here today wrote two books for boys and girls and it really addresses the issues hence some of those kids who have body image worries and issues, can those worries be eased. Dr. Charlotte Markey is here. She wrote two books, like I said, one for girls, one for boys. She's a body and image expert and psychology professor who helps girls and boys ages nine to 15 in her books to understand, accept and appreciate their bodies. In those books, she provides all the facts on puberty, mental health, self-care, and also answers questions as to why diets or fad news and helps girls and boys deal with social media issues and everything in between. So in these books, girls and boys will find answers to questions that they always really wanted to ask and really get the truth behind really why body image myths are inaccurate and hear real life stories from other boys and girls who share their own experiences. So here to tell us all about it is the author herself. And like I said, just really excited for her to tell you all about how she got to writing these books and all about what's in them. So with that being said, I'm going to bring her onto the show. [DR. CRISTINA] All right, so Charlotte, welcome to the show. I'm very excited that you're here. [DR. CHARLOTTE MARKEY] Yeah, I'm so excited to be talking with you. [DR. CRISTINA] Okay, so great books that you've written. I'm just curious, how did you come up with the idea to write them? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, so I had started writing more for adults, so for either like newspaper type articles or I wrote one book that was aimed at adults and I just started thinking more and more like sometimes by the time we're adults, we have so many habits and attitudes about these issues that are really hard to change and wouldn't it be great if kids like mine and yours just never got to adulthood with those sorts of problematic attitudes and behaviors? So I thought let's see if I can float this, if anyone will go along with this idea of aiming a book at tweens and teens. I think also, my own daughter when I worked on The Body Image Book for Girls, was probably about 11 when I was starting that project and we were, we had been reading like puberty books together and stuff, and I noticed that they would mention eating and body image a little bit, but not very much and not necessarily in the ways that I wanted to and I thought like this general concept is great of all these puberty books so much better than when I was a kid but can we improve upon it in terms of these particular topics and then expand? So I think that was probably a big part of it was just almost thinking what would I give my own kids and so yeah, before I knew it I had my own daughter like proofreading chapters. So it's just the rest is history. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] So were there, it's interesting that, so she's of that age and what popped in your mind in terms of like what was like specifically missing? [DR. MARKEY] I think I just wanted more content was a big part of it and the focus on food is very nutrition focused which I think there's some value in that and I include a little bit of that in the books as well, but, my approach in talking about specific nutrition information is typically like, yes, this is important to eat everything and don't worry about it. It's almost like I'm trying to correct for all the cultural messages we get that demonize like every food at one point or another and in other sorts of health related books for kids, I feel like the nutrition information is much more focused on make sure you eat this and make sure you eat that. So I don't really love that approach, especially with kids who I think really internalize that and then start to sort of moralize those lessons. You start talking good and bad foods with kids that can be that, the sorts of dichotomies can really stick in a way that then kids think that they're bad if they have something sweet and that's just not given my own research in this area for so long, how I've raised my kids at all. They have something sweet or dessert like food probably most days, but because that's never been forbidden, it's never really a big deal. Like they don't really take, they can take it or leave it oftentimes, which is I think a healthy, psychologically healthy way for them to approach food. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] I love that you're saying that because I've been asked so many times from parents like, well of course how can you say there's not good or bad foods? Isn't it my job as a parent to keep them away from the bad foods? Like I'm not keeping them healthier doing them any good if I don't teach them that there are good in bad foods. Like, what are you talking about? That's a very common question I get, so I'm really glad you put that out there. So if a parent's listening right now going like, what do you mean? Like, how do I know how to do this right, because I think parents don't get a manual on this either. They're very confused. [DR. MARKEY] No, I think it's really hard. I mean, I think feeding kids is one of the hardest things we do as parents. There's a lot of conflicting information, a lot of misinformation in public spaces about nutrition and a lot of sort of rigidity in terms of how people think about I think feeding kids. It's very different than what most of us were brought up with and so that requires a real reframing for many of us and when we approach our own kids. But most parents I talk to want to do that reframing, want to think about this because being told they have to eat everything at dinner so that then they could have dessert they see maybe that wasn't the best approach where then they were eating food they really didn't like, or developed like a sort of tense family dinner time over those rules. So they don't want those things for their kids. They don't want to be like strict about food in those ways. They don't want food to be a source of conflict and so they're willing to talk about it. But you're right, it's really confusing and foreign in some ways. I think people often probably assume when we say there are no real good and bad foods, that this means we just let our kids eat whatever they want whenever, like we just have sugar, cereal and candy. We just leave it all on the counter. They can just do whatever they want. It's not to that extreme either? I mean, there's this middle ground where yes, there are some sweets in the house. Yes, if they want a certain cereal, I will buy it even if it seems like it is made of pure sugar. But do I have it all continually stocked up? So that's all, there is? No, like, there's fruits, there's vegetables, there's other snacks that may be more nutritious and just sort of trying to create just a variety of options so that none of it feels like forbidden fruit. But yeah, they can with age come to appreciate that if you just eat candy for dinner, you're going to have an upset stomach. Like that's not really what you want to do. I encourage parents, let them try that a couple of times and like, that problem can solve itself if you're having a big conflict about those sorts of issues. But if you keep saying, no, no, no, you can't have it, that tends to create a whole other side of psychological issues for kids. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Right. Because, that is interesting to your point. I hear parents say that all the time like, well, I get so scared because if I have it in the house, that's all they're going to eat and they're not going to eat anything else. Yeah, that is like the all or nothing thinking of like, have it in there then they're not going to eat anything else. Yeah, to your point, like nobody's going to feel really physically good. They're not going to think well, they're not going to have any energy, they're going to be sluggish. It's having a balance. [DR. MARKEY] I mean, I think when we don't offer a lot of food rules to kids they're going to figure this out. And we want to, I mean some like family support and rules and always are valuable to young kids because it's a way that we provide structure and love essentially by having our homes not just be every for all in every sense of the term. But it's, we overcomplicate some of this I think by feeling like we need to explain like nutritional information to kids we don't. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Well, and how, just because the books are focused on like body image too, how much of this is, I guess also complicated because certain foods are, I guess in our society tied to the fat phobic society we're in and like, oh gosh, if people eat these certain foods, they're going to look a certain way. And bringing up the hot topic now of the pediatric guidelines coming up and I read them and their whole emphasis is on eating certain "healthy" "good foods" and keeping kids from eating certain, what is determined as "bad foods" and really having parents follow these guidelines they've set out and how much is this going to make this more complicated? [DR. MARKEY] I think parents and kids have been getting that information from pediatricians generally speaking for a while. I can remember challenging one of my own kids' pediatrician when they were really little about this and she was surprisingly really open to talking about it then.. But I remember saying like I have a sick kid here and she wants this, I don't know what it was like goldfish crackers or chips or whatever. I'm like, it doesn't matter. Like that's not what's most important right now. Like, can we attend to other things here and that's providing some comfort right now. That's not what she eats all the time, but if we make it forbidden fruit, then that's all she's going to want so that's not a great idea. Yeah, the pediatric guidelines are really concerning and problematic and I had a really great conversation with a pediatrician who's at Johns Hopkins a few weeks ago actually. I thought when we started our meeting that we were going to be like at opposing sides of the issue and I wasn't sure how it was going to go. We had some colleagues in common, which is what led us to end up talking to one another but she has some concerns about the guidelines too. So I thought that was really interesting and I think that, I think that there's obviously a lot of pushback, so we'll see how this plays out over time. [DR. CRISTINA] That's why I was even more excited to have you on because these books are the pro-body image for boys and girls and it's really nice to see that there's a book for boys as well because that's so rare that we talk about how boys and their body image issues. Because I think it's always more the focus on like girls in their body image and I don't know if part of why you thought to write a book for boys is because you do, did you think, oh, that's something in our society that's needed or like, what was the impetus for you to also write a book for boys? [DR. MARKEY] It was really interesting when I wrote the proposal for the girls book. The editor that I continued to work with on these books and I had a meeting and she said, "I understand why the focus is girls for this book but how you feel about a book for boys?" So right from the beginning I was like, listen, I don't know how to put it all in one book because I knew I didn't want to cover puberty and some issues that were just going to be hard to make them together, I thought for a young audience. She was like, that's fine. She was like I have two sons though. I was like, no, I have a boy too. She says they need a book. I said, yeah, they do. So right from the beginning it was part of the plan and way books work is that in order to write more books, your first books have to sell well enough. So fortunately the girls book has, I guess sold enough. I try not to keep track of the specific numbers and those things because it stresses me out but they bring, the the boys book pretty early just, I think before the girls book had been out very long at all, we were, we had moved on to working on that. So it was always part of the plan. I mean, if you look at the data we see that by adolescents about 70% of boys are expressing dissatisfaction. They don't all want to be thinner so it depends on what questions you ask them. If you ask the boys if they want to lose weight a lot, we'll say no. But if you're asking them a more variety set of questions about body image, a lot of them are trying to gain muscle. A lot of them are concerned about other elements of their appearance, even just things like height. So I think those are important to address for that particular audience. [DR. CRISTINA] And curious, when have you heard that, like going back to the different genders, when have you heard that girls versus boys start to have like real concerns or thoughts about wanting their bodies to be different? [DR. MARKEY] I mean, the first journal article I ever published was in 2000 and we looked at five year old girls and we were already seeing 20% of them indicate some dissatisfaction with their bodies. Whether or not that was really what they were feeling or if they had just sort of internalized messages at home that this is what they should be feeling, I can't say. But we know it starts younger than people tend to suspect and then by adolescence it just really starts to blossom because we have more concerns about peers and maybe significant others and sort of the social world starts to change. But also their bodies are changing a lot and not always in ways they want them to. Sometimes boys want to get bigger and taller and faster, but they're not and girls have grown taller or bigger and they don't want to. So there's just a lot of sort of turmoil during that time, which doesn't mean that every adolescent is an ass, it just means that these issues arise. [DR. CRISTINA] I often hear from my patients that are adults that if they were, let's say like the girl who grew taller or went through puberty first, that they had the body image issues like earlier on or they felt like if they were the taller girl, they felt "bigger" just because they were taller. I don't know what you found or if you can speak to that a little bit. [DR. MARKEY] Early puberty for girls is a risk factor actually for a variety of mental health and even physical health concerns. So some of it seems to have a real biological basis that girls who go through puberty earlier actually tend to be shorter and heavier. It's not clear why that is, but it seems to happen. We also know that girls who go through puberty earlier often attract attention from older boys and older peers even so that can place them in context where their bodies receive more scrutiny, their appearance may be more of a concern. So there's a lot that goes on, but puberty is definitely relevant. [DR. CRISTINA] Okay, and anything you can speak to about girls who are maybe taller and their peers, especially boys? [DR. MARKEY] Well, I mean we've all seen the pictures of girls and boys at the same age and the girls like ahead over the boy. There can definitely be a few years where that's a case where girls are taller than even the boys and it can make them feel sometimes a little bit uncomfortable in their own bodies but usually that is a passing phase. So it's not necessarily a long-term problem, I think height so much and all the other things that come with puberty. [DR. CRISTINA] So how do we have a discussion that normalizes that phase of life because that seems to be like a very triggering stage of life, especially for girls. Their bodies are changing for when we first start seeing eating disorders and the behaviors, the thoughts and how do we normalize like, okay, this is a normal thing that's happening to your body? You start to get squishy around the middle, you start to go from being a little girl to having a woman body and instead of girls feeling like, oh, I have to stop this, they're like, this isn't okay. How do we say this is totally normal, this is your body being beautiful and these are all normal changes? Like how does that change? [DR. MARKEY] I mean, I think it's important to start to talk to kids before they're there to start to talk about health issues and even issues pertaining to purity before it's relevant because one, it's just easier. Like when it's really happening, there's a lot more emotion I think for both parents and kids. So it can be much harder to have those conversations. And it doesn't mean like you need to have any like version of the talk when a kid is six or something. But I think normalizing is exactly what I want to do. I love that word. Like just normalize communicating about health and how our bodies change and how we take care of ourselves in developmentally appropriate ways from a young age. This is where some of the puberty books that are out there can be really helpful. In my opinion, there's really not too young of an age to have some of those books around. I know that my daughter did read one of them and then go to a friend's house and start talking about it at one point when they were quite young. But fortunately that kid's dad was a pediatrician and we had a pretty similar view about just normalizing these conversations. So that can be slightly tricky territory because you don't want necessarily your kids to be like the instructor of the other kids. Sometimes things get lost in translation and other parents may not always feel super comfortable. But I think that if you're comfortable talking about these things as a parent, then you are sending a really important message to kids that like, this is normal and we can talk about it and you can even work on, it's actually so cool what our bodies do. Like look at all the things our bodies go through. I remember telling my own daughter at some point, like, you're born with all of your eggs, isn't that amazing? Then of course having to explain what that meant, but she was like, sure. But I still think that's really cool. Like, I mean, that is an amazing thing, but like you're born already basically with, you know, if you want to have a child, the egg that will form that childlike in the time you're born. [DR. CRISTINA] Totally. Like the body, I love that because the body is so amazing and it's, for me it's disheartening that as humans, I hear so many people think down their bodies and hating their bodies and wishing their bodies were so different. It's so rare to hear like, oh, I so appreciate that my body's allowing me to do this or that it's strong or all my eggs are here. Like we don't do this. This is not like the vocabulary or the language that happens. Why is that? [DR. MARKEY] I mean, I taught the psychology of adolescents class at Rutgers University for many, many years and I will admit when I first started doing that, I was in my twenties and I mean, I had classes of students that weren't that much younger than me and talking about some of this did feel pretty intimidating. And maybe it's just all those years of practice that really made it easier for me. Or maybe I think some of it too, is when you delve into it and have to explain it to other people, you have sort of a special sense of like, this is really cool. Like this is pretty amazing actually, that these processes start in our brain and that our height is 90% inherited essentially, or weight for that matter is often about 80% terrible. So you think about sort of just the biology and what's going on that most people don't seem to, I want to spend a lot of time appreciating. But those are fun things to talk about. Even really little kids I think can get into that if you have some like human body books around and some facts about the human body, even things like amenity is really cool to talk about. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Yeah, focus on things about the body other than like appearance and weight. Oh gosh, like, what are we doing wrong? What's happening? [DR. MARKEY] I mean, we all get those cultural messages about appearance and weight and so it's no wonder that we're responsive to them. And our kids are going to see that. So like if we're, we don't really have to socialize that at all. You don't have to worry about your kid, like not being interested in fashion or hygiene even, because like they're going to figure that out on their own for better and worse and if they don't, for the most part, it's okay. I mean, not the hygiene piece I guess. But I think that focusing on more of the positive and just normalizing development is really interesting and our bodies keep changing and I try not to be too disparaging about those changes with age even because we don't want to send that message either and it's like all downhill at some point, even though certain things does feel that way a little bit. But I think there are some things about getting older, even if our bodies are not quite as high functioning always that that's really cool and the sort of acceptance that can come with age and a sense of greater comfort with oneself is something I think I appreciate and that I wish it hadn't taken me so long.. [DR. CRISTINA] And I'm curious, like you said you had your daughter looking at the book before it was published, and I'm wondering like what was her take on things and how much like her perspective on things have on the final draft? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, so I've gone through a really iterative process in working on all these book projects. So I have a third book coming out next year. It's almost done and it's geared toward like later teens, young adults, so sort of the first two books leave off this one is going to pick up. But the process has been the same for all of them in that I draft the content and then I have focus groups or during the pandemic we went online to sort of have people, the target readership, read the chapters and offer feedback, ask questions. So then I have my own students who are a little bit older or actually the target age of the next book read chapters. So there's a lot of like back and forth in terms of trying to get the content at the right level, address questions that this age group has even though I think I remember what it was like to be 13 and was pretty long time now. So I think it's really important to interact with your audience and make sure you're trying to give them what they need. My daughter was one of the first readers, but certainly not the only one and not the last. She was probably a little more brutally honest than some people and she really liked finding typos that felt like a sort of revenge, I think for any of the times I had helped her with homework. But it was cute. I think some of the anatomy she, you know, she was young for so like the sort of vaginal anatomy in particular, I remember her like circling and writing yuck next to, and I just explained that there's nothing yucky, this is normal. Like, you don't want to think about any part of your body as yucky. That's why it's going to be in the book. So I think sometimes that can be surprising to kids, but, and it makes them giggle a little, but that doesn't mean they're not learning something. I wish I had had those diagrams as a young kid. Otherwise, like where do you get reliable information? I mean, our kids are Googling this stuff right to understand their own anatomy and you don't want your kid like Googling like penis or something. Like they're going to get a lot of things you don't want. So, I mean, I understand why sometimes parents are surprised to see pictures of anatomy in a body image book, but they're pretty tame in terms of what's out there in the world and they're informative and so I don't apologize for those. [DR. CRISTINA] No. It, even if they're not going to get it off the internet, they could hear it from peers and it could be very wrong scary information that you really don't want them getting. So it's great that your book has this information that's it's good information that is age appropriate. [DR. MARKEY] Yeah. And they're not necessarily getting good information at school either. I mean, there is more than one state in the US that actually the law is that like puberty health, sex ed information, the law actually states it does not need to be medically active. That's the law. Yeah, so, I mean, that's what we're up against as parents. We're up against boys find porn on average by 11. We don't really have that data for young girls, but it's not hard to find. Their school doesn't have to give them medically accurate information in some states and so I think books can fill a real important place there.. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Yeah. Well, and not everyone's in a public school either. So there's private schools or people who are homeschooled and so you just, not every kid's getting the same information regardless. [DR. MARKEY] I mean I went to a Catholic school, we didn't really get much of anything. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] So I am curious though that are these books meant to be, I guess, read with parents? Or is it solely for like the kids to read on their own? [DR. MARKEY] I mean, I think if I had control over what happened, I would say yeah, when your kid's about 10 read it with them. It's as good a bedtime reading as anything. I think it doesn't mean you have to read it all the way through, like skip around after at a time, whatever. I routinely have adults or, and parents say that they learned a lot. This wasn't information that they necessarily knew. I think that's an amazing compliment. Like I love that, that parents are learning things and then able to support their kids better because they have evidence-based information. But I also think if your kid's a little bit older or that just feels too awkward for you as a parent my favorite trick is just leave books in their room and then they'll say, 90% of the time they'll say, I'm trying read this. Or they'll toss it aside because it looks like a school book or whatever to them and then you'll find it open somewhere or you'll hear her from their friend's mom that they were reading it or whatever. Kids can feel awkward and embarrassed too, but it, they're also very curious so they, it doesn't take a lot to tempt them. [DR. CRISTINA] No, this, I think that's true. Leaving it around and then they probably won't say anything. Read it. That's so true. I'm glad that there's, I mean, I'm glad you read the book. Like I was, like I said, I was so excited to have you on because I think there are a lot of questions. I do work with kids and families and there's so many questions, there's so much misinformation out there on social media out there just I think people are confused and they're hearing the wrong things. [DR. MARKEY] But it's hard to know what the right things are. If you don't do this for a living and you grew up in a family that maybe did a lot of the wrong things as probably most of our families did, honestly, I mean, how are you supposed to know? How are you supposed to sift through all the information out there? I think it's just really harder. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, and I think a lot of people think they're doing loving, caring things coming from a really good place, but what's actually happening is very damaging. I hear it all the time like I'm just looking out for their health or I'm looking, I heard this, I read this and that's what I believe to be true. And it's because they don't realize the effects that it's having on their children or what they're role modeling. That to me is the scariest part. It's like, I understand this out there in the world, out there and I love that you're, what's in your books are, it's evidence-based. It's actually the truth. It's honest and it's what people need to have so they feel comfortable, they feel secure. I'm a parent too. It's what I do this for a living, but if I didn't, I would want to know, okay, what's actually true, what's actually real? Because there is a lot of noise out there. How do you like, to your point, how do you sift through it all? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, I think it's just really tricky. It's amazing that we can all just get online and find information so easily, and especially for younger people. Even my college students will tell me that like TikTok is primary source of information for them. I think there's some good information on TikTok. I'm not going to lie. Like I think that kids are better informed about a lot of things because they have easy access to information, but there's also a lot of bad information on TikTok. Young brains are not very good ignoring something that seems flashy or they want to believe, or someone famous is saying. They just can't separate out some of the things that may draw them to a message from the inaccuracy of the message. And even adults are not great at. So I think that we really need counterpoints to social media in general. It's a lot for any parent to police. I'm not saying that like we need to, well, I mean, it would be great if there were more regulations, I think in terms of kids social media use, but I don't know that, like as a parent we can necessarily do that perfectly because it would be a full-time job. But we can work on that piece in part, but then also provide the accurate, the counter messages and just normalized conversation from a young age about these issues and anything important to you and your family. You don't have to wait until they're 16 or an adult. You want to start young. [DR. CRISTINA] So I'm curious, are your books being used in any schools or like, are they just more like private families buying them, like individually were they being distributed? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, I definitely have heard of some schools and even like an afterschool program recently had me come because they got a book for all of the kids. So that was really cool. It was really cool too, because we had like a stack of the boys books and a stack of the girls books and I came and talked with the kids for a little bit and then they could each get a book and I signed them and talked to them about it and we let them pick whichever book they wanted whichever gender, what they felt they identified with. But it became clear at some point, like they were just like focused on the color of the cover, some of the kids it seemed. So we left them with extra books in case they went home and was like, oh, wait a second, this isn't actually what I want. But it was really cool the way they had that set up. The books are actually published by Cambridge University Press, which is located in the UK. It's had more, I think, infiltration of the school system in the UK. They actually have a totally different sort of health curriculum than we do in the US and they're actually supposed to talk about body image as part of it and they have a really cool program called Reading Well where all school libraries have certain books that they include in their, like, curriculum that's meant to foster mental and physical health. So the books are part of that so they're all the libraries in the UK for kids. So there's been some reach outside of just like private homes, which is really, really rewarding to see. I love talking with kids in school settings so that's something I'm working on trying to do more of once I finish writing this, getting this next book out into the world. [DR. CRISTINA] That's awesome. Like, wow, wow. Can we get that here,? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah. No, I mean I just, I really love talking with like, especially young teens is probably my favorite age because I think that they're just so inherently curious and often just have so many questions that adults are either just uncomfortable or afraid to answer. And so that can be just really, I think, really fun just to be the adult who doesn't mind saying like, here's the answer, or it's ok to feel yucky sometimes. Like yes, like to offer some sort of compassion and support also. Of course, yes, adults feel confused too. Like we don't all know what we're doing either. So I don't know, it can be a lot of fun. Like I said, I hope to get into more schools in the, in the coming years. [DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Yeah, because I was just, as you were talking, thinking, gosh, this would be great to have in the schools as part of the health component of things or health class. What a valuable resource. Absolutely. So glad you wrote that. [DR. MARKEY] I think we could do health education a lot better than we do. [DR. CRISTINA] I mean, I'm not going to call out any particular schools, but over the years I've heard some of my patients saying very scary things about like health teachers having them write down their food logs and saying sugar's bad and all of these things that are out there and the toxic diet world that like these are very impressionable young people hearing these things and this is what they're getting educated on. I'm like what, what's happening? This is not okay. This is very much like perpetuating very bad messages and scaring people about food and ... [DR. MARKEY] I've written a little bit about this in recent years and and hope to write about it more in the future as well because it's sort of a hot button issue to me too. I think most teachers are certainly well meaning, most of them enjoy kids and enjoy what they're doing and oftentimes are constrained by some curriculum that's either state or school district mandated. So sometimes they don't even have real control over what they're supposed to be talking about but I do wish that that it went differently. I wish that a lot of things didn't happen. There's just still a lot of weighing kids in school, which, I will say, like I remember when that started and it was in response to research suggesting that parents were really bad at it, estimating their kids weight and health risk. So we had a different framing in the early 2000s about that and it was in part like, well we need some other source to provide information that's objective to families. So I think it really truly was well intentioned. It's not like schools set out to humiliate kids in front of their friends. There was a well-meaning I think sentiment, but we have data now that's really idea, it has not played out well. It hasn't done anything that people thought it would do. It does humiliate because it is just really not the right setting for this sort of a thing to take place. It can be really damaging. I mean, I'm sure you hear all the time, as do I, kids talk about will come and say like, the first time I went on a diet was, or the first time I started thinking about skipping a meal or whatever. These are the moments being weighted at school or having a pediatrician say something when there's an authority figure who you trust, who then imparts information or offers some feedback that's really shaming. You can really go downhill from there. [DR. CRISTINA] Absolutely. I do remember that, you and I were sharing, I have a teenage daughter too, and I remember getting a notice from her school saying they were going to start doing, or they were going to do a weigh in and I just went ballistic and I went, oh my gosh. Because I flashed back to my own memories of that happening in like sixth grade going, oh, that was awful. I shared with the audience, like, I had my own eating disorder and that was definitely something that was in there, a triggering moment. I just, I wrote a nasty gram and thank gosh, honestly, the pandemic happened shortly like that thereafter, so that didn't occur. So that's one thing I was grateful for, but I just, are they still doing this? What's happening? [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, there's still a lot of it. I mean, I'm sure it's something that varies by state. There's a lot of weighing, some of it comes up in terms of sports too, for certain sports. There's weighing and weight classes even and yeah, most of it's really problematic. It's really, I'm not really sure why schools haven't gotten this message loud and clear. I think that people are resistant to change. You've been doing something one way for a long time and you think you're doing something that's good or conducive to help promotion and so you don't want to change but once you see data suggests what you're doing is harmful, then one would hope that that would be enough. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, I mean things are quick, are not quick to change, they're very slow to change. Even like, I have adult patients who will not go to the doctors just slowly because they know they're going to get weighed. Even though I've said you don't have to get weighed, you're still very hesitant and don't feel like they can say that or ask for that. And the BMI is still utilized and I don't know why, but, hopefully one day that will be gone. But that's very triggering too. [DR. MARKEY] Yeah. There's just, it's slow. I think that, I'm hopeful though, I've been collaborating with a really cool organization called Breal and they do a lot of programming for schools and it's a very sort of inclusive programming in every sense of the word inclusive in terms of gender, age. They're really working on some really, really cool, I think hopefully very effective programming. They've also been really good about doing research so that they know if it's effective or not. So I've been really excited to be just recently getting involved with them and talking with them about how to expand the curriculum. It was body image focused initially, but then they were getting feedback from teachers that they did want more nutrition related information. So then it's okay, how do we offer some nutrition information but have it be framed in a way that's conducive to both mental and physical health and body positive. So that's sort of the way I've approached it in my books as well, or the way I've tried to approach it is. Yeah, I mean, I think when you hear about organizations like that doing this work and often it's not like they're making a profit or anything. I mean, this is just people who are really passionate about these issues and really want to make things better for the next generation. But I always find that inspiring. It helps to keep me going because yeah, it's not like any of us are making a lot of money or something off of these projects, they're passion projects. [DR. CRISTINA] No, absolutely. I am very hopeful that people hearing about your books today will, anyone who's got some pre-teens, tweens that will go out and search out your books and it'll be very helpful for them. Your upcoming books for the older teens, I'm excited for those two. So I'm sure people listening are going, okay, how do we find these things, how do we get in touch with you or find your books. So how can they do that? [DR. MARKEY] So you can just go to thebodyimagebookforgirls.com or thebodyimagebookforboys.com. All my contact information is there. Information out about the books are there. The books are on Amazon and pretty much anywhere. You can message me if you have questions and if you do have a school that is interested in having me come, like I said, I am hoping to do more of that in the years ahead. Schools sometimes have parent groups. That's also really fun. I've done some of that just even over Zoom. So the pandemic has helped us, I guess, in that sense, and that we've all gotten much better at figuring out how to communicate virtually. [DR. CRISTINA] That's fantastic. Thank you so, so much for all this information and for writing these books. They're much needed. So any last final words before we end? [DR. MARKEY] No, thanks for everything that you're doing too, to get people both psychologically and physically healthy, sort of messaging out to your audience. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, like I said, there's so much misinformation out there. I know this is, I'm a small little voice, but whatever I can get out there and have people like yourself who are spreading the right information, if we can start doing that more, that's the goal. [DR. MARKEY] Right, just got to put a little dent, sort of chip away at the misinformation and see what we can do for the next generation. Those of us who have been damaged by some of the sort of old-fashioned messages, we can also work on ourselves in ways so that we can be happier and healthier. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, again, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. [DR. MARKEY] Yeah, thank you. [DR. CRISTINA] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.