Do you use diet, health, and fitness apps? Are health and fitness apps doing more harm than good? How are they influencing your relationship with your body and the concept of “wellness”? In this podcast episode, Dr. Cristina Castagnini speaks with Jessica Marini about health and fitness apps and the dangers of following the trend.

MEET JESSICA MARINI

Jess is a 30-year-old Speech Language Pathologist in a special education school, where she helps teenagers communicate their wants and needs to others. During the pandemic, she also decided to start a blog, Decompress with Jess, which she has since developed into a podcast. Decompress with Jess is a space where people can totally decompress and relax while discussing mental health, body image, and everything in between. She created the podcast because its important to hear the perspective of an everyday average person (just your everyday average Jess), going through life -like we all do- and sharing their experiences. Listen to her podcast connect on Instagram. Email Jess at decompresswithjess@yahoo.com

IN THIS PODCAST

  • What does the app do for your relationship with food and fitness?
  • Assigning moral values
  • Most apps have little to no accountability
  • Bodies vary

What does the app do for your relationship with food and fitness?

Health and fitness apps are cleverly marketed to appeal to a person’s psychology and desire for (easy) change. They make you feel good about yourself by providing a sense of accomplishment, they provide step-by-step guidelines, and encourage you by showing “progress”. However, have you stopped to think about what these apps are doing to your relationship with food? Are they enabling you to obsess over food, calories, and numbers, or are they genuinely helping you to be holistically well?
I feel like I’m hypervigilant now with the app … now it’s like second nature to me … so it’s good to be aware of what the food is but now I feel like I’m so hypervigilant that it might not be a good thing. (Jessica Marini)

Assigning moral values

Fitness apps will alert you to “mistakes” that you have made in eating “too much” of something.
I think there is that idea of, “I’m bad … I ate the bad food, I ate the good food”, like, so much of your emotions or feelings of self-worth are based on [whether] you ate the “good” food or “bad” food. (Dr. Cristina Castagnini)
If someone is not careful, these external signals of assigned “good” and “bad” values can influence them to believe that they are “good” or “bad” based on what their app tells them. By assigning moral values to food people can begin to see themselves as “good” or “bad” depending on what they eat, which is completely untrue. Your inherent value as a human being is not dictated nor influenced by diet.

Most apps have little to no accountability

Because health and fitness apps are controversial and could potentially be harmful to people vulnerable to eating disorders, they should have systems in place to screen potential users. However, most apps are not secured. Almost anyone can join, they are not screened by age so young teenagers who are easily influenced can join, and there is often little to no encouragement to seek professional help or the advice of a guardian if a young person does sign up.
[The apps] wouldn’t make money if they had to say, “consult with your doctor first and then you can use the app”, which is probably why they just let anybody join. (Jessica Marini)

Bodies vary

Genetically, every single person in the world is unique. Their bodies will react to food in different ways, their bodies will adapt to exercise in different ways, and their bodies adapt to their environments in different ways. Your body is your body. Take care of it and yourself, and work to learn how to love it and care for it. You are worth the time it takes to learn how to support yourself through life holistically.

USEFUL LINKS

MEET DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI

I am a licensed Psychologist and Certified Eating Disorder Specialist. While I may have over 20 years of clinical experience, what I also have is the experience of having been a patient who had an eating disorder as well. One thing that I never had during all of my treatment was someone who could look me in the eye and honestly say to me "hey, I've been there. I understand". Going through treatment for an eating disorder is one of the hardest and scariest things to do. I remember being asked to do things that scared me. Things I now know ultimately helped me to get better. But, at the time, I had serious doubts and fears about it. If even one of my providers had been able to tell me "I know it's scary, but I had to go through that part too. Here's what will probably happen...." then perhaps I would not have gone in and out of treatment so many times. My own experience ultimately led me to specialize in treating eating disorders. I wanted to be the therapist I never had; the one who "got it". I will be giving you my perspective and information as an expert and clinician who has been treating patients for over 2 decades. But don't just take my word for it...keep listening to hear the truly informative insights and knowledge guest experts have to share. I am so happy you are here!

THANKS FOR LISTENING

Did you enjoy this podcast? Feel free to comment below and share this podcast on social media! You can also leave a review of Behind The Bite on Apple Podcasts (previously) iTunes and subscribe!

Podcast Transcription

[DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Behind The Bite podcast is part of a network of podcasts that are good for the world. Check out podcasts like the Full of Shift podcast, After the First Marriage podcast and Eating Recovery Academy over at practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to Behind The Bite podcast. This podcast is about the real life struggles women face with food, body image and weight. We're here to help you inspire and create better healthier lives. Welcome. . Well, hello everyone. Today I have a guest who has been on here before, and you may not remember her because it's been a while. So I will reintroduce her. Jessica Marini is a speech language pathologist in a special education school where she helps teenagers communicate their wants and needs to others. During the pandemic, she decided to start a blog Decompress with Jess and her intention with this blog was to create a space where people can totally decompress and relax while discussing mental health, body image, and pretty much everything in between. She thought it would be nice to hear from the perspective of an everyday average person going through life, just like you and sharing her experiences. As I said, it's been a while, but we have since kept in touched, and it's been through some back-and-forth messaging that we both thought it was a great time to have her come back on the show and discuss something we both had on our minds. What was that? It's all those diet apps. They seem to be everywhere. So what better topic to bring to the show than those? We're both coming in with different perspectives so this is sure to be quite a lively discussion. I honestly have no idea what you're about to hear, but knowing Jess, this is sure to be quite a show. So with that, I'm going to go get Jess and get right into it with. Jessica. Welcome back to the show. How are you doing? [JESSICA MARINI] Hi, Dr. Cristina. I'm so happy to be back on. You were the first person that really inspired me to have my podcast and I was on your podcast and you were online and I just feel like this is a full circle moment. I'm just so excited for today. [DR. CRISTINA] Me too. We've been talking a little bit before recording about what we wanted to talk about, and I know we've tackled some like topics, just back channeling, but this article came up and we were both looking sideways with interest. It's the 13 best apps similar to Noom in 2022. We're coming at a little bit different perspectives, but I think very similarly. I'm this certified eating disorder specialist and psychologist and maybe you're coming at it from less of a specialist perspective, but I think it's an interesting discussion about what are these apps about? I think there's a lot of people out there looking at these apps going, oh, this is just what I need. Let me go start bettering myself. Or it's not really about weight loss. It's not really a diet. They're couched in something else. I don't know, you tell me what do you think about when you see these apps advertised? [JESSICA] I think it's a great conversation to have, because like you said, you're coming from the experts point of view and I'm coming from the consumer's point of view because I have, I've had some of these apps. I have my, I mean, we'll get into all the apps, but the one I have now is My Fitness Pal and I've had it for years, but, I mean, even us talking about it before more about this than I do, and I'm looking at an app and I'm like, oh my gosh, Dr. Cristina, this one seems so cool. It has this and this. It said the word psychology in it so it must be good. You're like, Jessica, no, it's not. That's a good point because as a consumer, I'm coming from it as I want an app, that's going to hold me accountable for not even just losing weight or gaining weight, just, I want to see how many calories are in food. I want to see how much protein I want to see the breakdown in it, but I'm not really considering the health aspect of it. So, I mean, I'm pretty much going into this naively and I'm glad that at least you have your points of view and you're coming at it from having more experience from it. You're working from the inside out. So I think it's important that we bring this to light because so many people are using these apps, not knowing what they're really getting themselves into and it's scary. [DR. CRISTINA] Right, and I have to say, I look at the ads and see them in the commercials and I can see why someone feels, oh, it's not diet based. It's based in psychology. This is the "good app." Or this is something different than I have tried. Let me go for it. I've had other people on the show before talking about these apps going, no, these are just diets hidden under these big, fancy words. [JESSICA] I feel like buzzwords, they just find these buzzwords or these catch phrases or these things that we're all looking for. Everyone's very into psychology and mental health now so imagine an app that focuses on your mental health and your physical health. Of course, a lot of people are going to be like I'm glad, but is that what they're really doing? I'm not sure. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, here's the thing, let me get back to the basis of what food is, it's fuel and nutrition. So maybe you tell me you've got the My Fitness Pal. Doesn't it make you a little bit more aware or think more about your food than maybe if you didn't have the app? [JESSICA] I mean, I would say it does, but it's like a double-edged sword because I feel like I'm hypervigilant now with the app. I mean, I've had it since maybe 16, 17, so now it's just second nature to me. And I'm 31, spoiler alert, but whenever I'm out, I'm like, oh my gosh, like I won't do it when I'm out, because I don't know. I'm interacting with my friends, when I go home, I'm like, okay, Jessica, what did I eat today? So I put everything in and now it's just like second nature to me. So yes, it's good to be aware of what the food is and the breakdown, but now I feel like I'm so hypervigilant that it might not be a good thing. I think there has to be a balance and sometimes people might become too addicted to these apps. [DR. CRISTINA] Wow. You've had it, I didn't realize it was out that long. That's a long time. [JESSICA] I didn't really, either until I started, I mean, maybe like 16, 17, but definitely since I was younger. Yes, it's crazy. I remember because I struggled with weight when I was younger, I was, I remember at 21, I was a hundred pounds and I'm five, seven. So I'm just naturally thin. I'm like, I need to do something to gain weight. So I was thinking, okay, let me try to look up something that will help. My fitness Pal, I saw that it's been around maybe actually 21. But still that's a long time. That's 10 years. I was like, okay, this must be a good app. Let me see. Ever since then, it's just like you, for people don't know what it is, you just put how much weight you want to be. So you put your current weight and how much weight you want to be and then they just tell you how many calories you're supposed to have a day and how many you're supposed to have for the week. Then you're supposed to weigh yourself at the end to see if you've gained the amount you've wanted or if you've lost the amount that you've wanted. Yes, it could just be very addicting sometimes. [DR. CRISTINA] I'm thinking as someone who's in my, years ago, as most listeners know, if you've listened to me before I had an eating disorder. I didn't grow up with apps or the internet or any of that and I could imagine myself as a 14, 15, 16-year-old who had access to an app like that. That would just made my eating disorder that much worse. I mean, I was already writing down and calculating things in my mind and on paper, but to have an app where it was that accessible and it was right there and calculating things and keeping me on track and reminding me to weigh myself at the end and doing all of that would've just perpetuated things, even worse, I think. And we'll talk about it a little bit more, but we've looked at some of these apps and like you said, what are they doing, allowing minors on these things and not really like thinking about who their users are and what the implications might be. [JESSICA] I think there should be an age limit, or like some type of education that you have to have before you go on the app. Like the app should provide like a section that before you even use the app, like, they should give information. Because think about I'm young, I'm 21 years old and I'm just going on this app, like, oh my gosh, like, I need to have this many calories for the day. I don't know, what if I'm young and I'm like, okay, I can have like three cheeseburgers for the day. It's good. It's showing, like you said, before, food is fuel that goes into our body. It's not really showing the good parts and also, like you said, it's perpetuating my further eating disorder and how I feel about myself because it's showing, okay, if I do all this work, then I'm going to gain weight and muscle and feel good about myself rather than I feel like it's preventing me from doing that inner work and feeling good about myself, regardless if I'm the weight that I desire to be. So I think it's probably better, you grew up without these apps, because I just feel like they make me crazy sometimes. [DR. CRISTINA] Maybe, like I said, you're using the app, does it ever get to the point where you feel, oh, maybe I'm more aware of what I'm eating or I won't eat this, or I feel a certain way about food based on what I'm putting into the app or have to be accountable for. [JESSICA] I think it's the point for me now, like, even if I don't use it one day, I'm just very aware of what is going into my body and it's sort of a routine for me. So I'm pretty much very regimented with what I eat, just because I'm a person of routine. So I don't even know if that's because of me as a person or maybe the app helped facilitate that. But yes, I'm just very aware and I guess that's a good thing to have it with everything. There has to be a balance. So it shouldn't always be me being aware. There are some days, like Easter was yesterday. I made it a point to not be on my app, tracking everything, because my gosh, I'm from a big Italian family. We're having ravioli, we're having rice bowls, we're having chicken cuts. We're having London boil. I don't want to look at the app and be like, oh my gosh, because then it says in red, you were supposed to stay under your sugar for the day. You were supposed to stay under your total fat. I'm like, all right, like let's just calm down for a minute. I'm human and it's going to happen sometimes. [DR. CRISTINA] Oh my goodness. So it has these red alerts? [JESSICA] I know. [DR. CRISTINA] Oh, I'm sorry, my head spin. So here you are trying to enjoy your holiday. I can imagine you were so diligent and using this app, like every day, like what that might do to somebody? Oh my gosh, it's a red flag day and I'm getting all these alerts and I think there is that idea of I'm bad. I eat the bad food. I eat the good food, this, that. So much of your emotions or your feelings of self-worth are based on if you eat the good food, bad food. So here you have this app saying you're red, you're bad. You did something awful, ouch. Like it's not even just coming from yourself internally. There's this external app telling you like, uh-oh you did something bad. [JESSICA] I was just going to say that you hit the nail on the head. I feel like our weight and how we feel about ourselves, I mean, and obviously all the clients you've seen, I feel like there's probably a theme of self-worth that's tied to it. So I feel like these apps maybe prevented me from asking myself, why is it so important for me to be this weight? What does it mean for me? I mean, obviously health, but take health out. What does it do for my self-worth? Am I really only considered good enough if I'm 10 pounds heavier because being a hundred pounds of 21 is considered too skinny and I feel like these apps really prevent you from going in that direction. I feel like maybe they should educate people further, like if you want to do this is great, but also consider if you don't do it, that's also okay. You're still just as great and worthy of all the good things that life has to offer you? [DR. CRISTINA] You bring up a really intricate point. What is the underlying motivation for these apps or the purpose, I guess, just for weight loss, because here you saying, I want to go here to put in the nutrition value and put in the things to make sure I'm fueling my body with enough so that I can, your goal was gaining weight. So it didn't seem like the apps, at least that one you're using really promoted that or helped support you in that in terms of like, am I getting enough fuel and nutrition for my body to reach some different goal, which most people I think go to the apps for, the opposite goal, which is to lose weight, if I'm being honest. So that's an interesting thing, like if they're promoting wellness and health, what is the purpose of weighing yourself? What does it have to do with weight at all? [JESSICA] It's very interesting you say that because the app does, there's a portion of it on the bottom that says when you scroll all the way down nutrition, so every day I have to have a certain amount of protein for the day, a certain amount of carbs, a certain amount of sugar, and that's fine, but it's very interesting that if I go over it, the app is like, it's in red. It comes up when you put the food in. It's like you're supposed to stay, I feel like I'm being yelled at, it's like, you're supposed to stay under this for the day. But if I don't hit that protein for the day, it never says it the opposite way. It's never, you didn't reach your protein goal for the day. It's like mostly just concerned with the number of calories that I'm hitting. So I could hit those calories for the day, but if I eat, if I eat something that's bad and I still hit it doesn't matter because it's not alerting me that I didn't hit my protein for the day. So it's just really concerned about that number and then that perpetuates weighing yourself all the time and just really becoming so hypervigilant with it that sometimes I do take a break from the app because I don't think it's good for my mental health. [DR. CRISTINA] So that's really key saying, I don't think it's good for my mental health because that, again, they're trying to promote wellness. I would imagine you're going there so that you can feel better overall about yourself, but here, you're coming out saying like, oh my gosh, I actually feel worse. Not only that, but, I mean, I'm personally wondering where do they get these guidelines or these baselines of how much you need to eat in a certain category? Like how much protein, how much this, how much that? They don't even know you. It's just this cookie, that's where the danger is, I think for me is like, there's this cookie cutter approach for everybody. There's this template. It's an app for everybody yet they don't know you. They don't know me. They don't know somebody thousands of miles away. It seems like everybody's going to be put against the same template and these guidelines that based on what? That's the scary part for me. The other scary part I'm hearing is this notion of still holding onto like the good and the bad. So if you do this, you're good. If you do that, you're bad. What that does again, to your psychological health and wellbeing for the day, or just overall over time, like, why is food labeled as good or bad or if you do this, you're good or you're bad? It's like, it's food [JESSICA] Right. It has such a power over us and I feel like over time it just becomes stressful, like the whole idea around food and eating, it just becomes like a stressor. I'm just like, why am I just so worried about food? But it's being perpetuated in everything around us. When you're on social media, it's like food. When you're on the apps, it's about food. I feel like I've found they're trying to tell you not to eat this, not eat, not to eat that but I find like if I just allow myself to eat what I want within a certain, obviously everything in moderation, then my body doesn't crave it. Imagine if I said to myself, pizza is bad, there is no protein, there is nothing nutritious about it, it's just bread and sauce, and I love it, but imagine, and cheese. But imagine if I said to myself, I cannot have pizza. Imagine one day I would probably snap and be like, Dr. Cristina, I am eating pizza. I'd probably eat way more pizza than if I said to myself, Jessica, it's been a long day. I'm having a slice of pizza and that's okay. I don't think that society, now society is telling you it's okay. But when I was growing up, it's like, you can't eat this. You can't eat that. You can't do this. You can't do that. [DR. CRISTINA] Oh, I still think that message is out there for sure. I hear it all the time with people I work with and it's, oh, I can't have this in the house. I don't trust myself around it. If it's in the house, I'll binge on it or I'll eat all of it. I say to people all the time, like no, have it in the house, because if you don't, that's what's going to happen. You're going to have that reaction of when you are around that food, that forbidden food, it's going to be the mentality of like, okay, I don't know what I'm going to get it again. This is my last time. It's like the damn broke. It's like the last upper. It's like, I'm going to eat it all now and then I'll be "good" again tomorrow. Like, this is my last opportunity. So I got to eat more of it than I would've normally eaten in any given point in time if I was just around it all the time and had a normal relationship with the food. It's like, I got to overdo it and get it all in now and then I'm done. It's like, this is my "bad moment." This is my cheat moment, whatever you want to call it. Then, okay, I got to abstain from it again. It's that cycle versus if it's around all the time. And I hear this all the time, people say, I never believed you when you told me if I had these foods in the house that I would one day just have them in the house and they'd go uneaten, or I'd forget they were there. But it happens all the time. People don't believe me. They're like, no, no, I can't have them. I can't have the ice cream. I can't have chocolate in the house. Are you kidding me? No, there's no way. I'm like, try it. Let's see what happens. [JESSICA] Rather than giving yourself one cheat day, you could eat whatever you want, which if that works for people fine. Imagine if every day could be like a cheat moment where you're just having that bowl of ice cream or it doesn't have to be like a tub of ice cream, you're allowed to have everything in moderation and your body feels better. Then there's even no guilt tied to it. I feel like when we have cheat days, as they say. It's like, I feel guilty because I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so gluttonous. I can't believe I did this and tomorrow I'm going to be good. But in reality, what does that really mean? If we really take the time to sit back and think what we're actually doing to ourselves, we're shaming ourselves, we're making us feel guilty for eating food, we're not machines. I can't eat, I guess, clean, as they say, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You have to allow yourself. I don't know, I just feel like we forget our body does so many things and I'm so grateful for it. I just feel like I'm punishing it sometimes, like, you can't have this, you can't have that. It needs a break sometimes. [DR. CRISTINA] I think you're absolutely right. I want to go back to these apps. I think there were Steve, what did it say, 13 best apps, similar to Noom. I pulled one up that, I mean, just so the listeners know there was, many of them scare me. But I pulled one up in particular, I just scrolled through the 13 and yes, there's one I pulled up and I'm just saying, I made a hypothetical person, not myself. I don't normally talk numbers. I think they're very triggering if we talk weights and numbers and things like that because I know most of you listening are like, oh my gosh. So I apologize if we're talking numbers and weights and things today, but I think there's a purpose to it. So I pulled this one up called Fooducate and it says it's the perfect alternative to Noom if you're to analyze your eating habits in terms of healthy and wholesome ingredients than just calories. [JESSICA] She's already like, nope. [DR. CRISTINA] It says health is more, is about more than just calories. It's critical to eat foods that have quality ingredients and Fooducate will help you do that. It says the goal of it is to educate people about healthy eating habits. So here we go, I went on the app and as Jessica knows I was mortified. I put in a fake person. First of all, I put a 14 year old female who is 5'10. Again, I apologize for anyone who's triggered by numbers, please. Pause or fast forward if you are. A 5'10 female at 14 years old, who's 115 pounds currently. They asked for your goal. I put the goal was to be a hundred pounds. So this 14 year old female who's 5'10 wants lose 15 pounds. Then they ask how active are you and put not, so they calculated the caloric intake that this 14 year-old would need for the day calorie. [JESSICA] I think it's just alarming that you were able to join the app at such a young age and there was nothing about like health or consult with your doctor first of all, 14 years old, you're a minor, talk to your parents. It's just, I don't even understand how that was possible. So many, I would just have so many concerns about that. I was just like, okay, you want to create the app, join it. Then they just come up with this number not considering the person's health, her age, that's just mind boggling to me. [DR. CRISTINA] You know what I'm thinking, even if we took the age out of it, even if this person was 25, 30, 50, whatever age, any female, that's 5'10, 115 pounds to start and wants to lose 15 pounds. [JESSICA] It's just, yes, that doesn't seem right either. [DR. CRISTINA] That to me is very alarming. Like where's the red flag going? This app is not right for you or that's not an attainable goal or maybe consult with your doctor. Where's the stop gap? There's an alert her like, wait a minute, what's happening here? Is this something that we should even entertain? Or is this a person we should allow into our app? Is this an achievable goal or is this even a reasonable goal? Then if we even take all that away, just take that away --- [JESSICA] Not even that, but I just feel like even if they mentioned, I know, like not to rely heavily on BMI because even that's another one, someone could, people could be two different ages, but they just really focus on the weight. But even alone like that weight, they probably would be like, oh, okay, if you want to lose weight, I guess it's up to everyone. It's a personal choice, but they should let someone know that's might not be the healthiest choice considering the weight you're at now. You might be already underweight or whatever, but regardless, even if there are, of course, then you run the risk of saying something that's triggering and you wouldn't want to upset anyone. But then you could also tell them, consult with your doctor, consult with a health expert, consult with a nutritionist. This could just be used as a guide. I think also they wouldn't make money if they had to say consult with your doctor first, and then you could use the app, which is probably why they just let anybody join. But I just still can't believe that you put, you are such a young age and they just let you join. Imagine your parents would probably be so upset. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, my daughter's almost 14. I'm just thinking, gosh, if she was on this and I had no idea, ah, that's scary because I'm also looking at okay, again, if we just take away the age, the daily caloric intake, again, apologize for anyone who's triggered by this, but 1,430 is such a scary amount for any woman of any age. I know out there in social media land the average is way less than that for, I think most women that I talk to think 900 to 1200 calories is an average daily caloric intake, which if you listen to one of my previous, my first podcast, I talk a lot about a starvation study that was done in the 50' that starvation was considered 1,275 calories a day. Scary. We don't talk about this. So I mean, for a female in puberty to have just over that for a daily caloric intake scares me that they're prescribing this or saying, this is how much you need. But here's the thing, it says for this 14-year-old, the target weight is a hundred pounds. Lose 15. The target date for this is November 14th. So they're saying the weekly weight loss for this 14 year old is half a pound a week. [JESSICA] I mean, I'm not even the expert. I don't know what would, is that even something, is that a healthy goal for someone to have, especially at that age? I'm not really sure. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, I'm just saying for somebody 5'10 at 150 pounds, just start to lose any weight, I mean, I'd be even like thinking, okay, let's take into consideration all aspects of this person's health to start. They don't even know their health status. Why are we talking about weight loss? [JESSICA] That's such a good point and I didn't even think about. Good thing because you're the expert. You don't even know people's medical conditions or health conditions. I don't even know was that an, did you have to put that in before? You don't even know if the person has a preexisting condition and maybe that's why they are at a certain weight. I can't even believe they, that's what I'm saying. Even for My Fitness Pal, nothing was asked. I'm sure there were disclaimers, so nobody could sue, but it's not, like you said, it's a cookie cutter, one size fits all. But I think if people really want to invest in an app, there should be one that I guess you have to pay for, but it would have to be more specific. Or if you don't have time to go to a nutritionist, maybe there would be an app that's like a nutritionist, but it's more tailored to your needs. [DR. CRISTINA] I'm just looking at this going, but I think the bottom line is like you're saying, why is weight loss a goal? Why are we promoting weight loss when, to your point with My Fitness Pal what is the effect of that being the goal on sometimes your mental health and wellbeing, or how you feel for the day when you're getting these red alerts or for this fake person I made up? What is this going to do to their physical health and wellbeing? If they actually take this on and do this, what's going to happen to this poor 14-year-old? [JESSICA] I think it's going to be tied to self-esteem for sure because if she actually does lose that weight and one person happens to say to her, and it could just be because she has a really nice haircut or she's wearing a different dress. If someone says to her, oh my gosh, you look so great, she's going to think, oh my gosh, it must be because I lost this weight. Good, good. Then it feeds her story that she's telling herself, I am only good enough. I am only worthy. I only deserve attention and to feel good about myself, if I'm at this weight. I feel like it ties back to social media, and there's a pressure, even with the apps that alter your body, that we're only good enough if we look a certain way and that's not possible. There's not one size fits all. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, and that's, too, I hear from some of the people around me, whether it's people I actually work with in my practice or people that I don't, that a lot of teenagers are looking on social media. They're following people that give their height, their weight, what they eat in a day or this or that. But I think what they're looking at mostly is I want to look like this person. So they're looking at what they put out there in terms of their height and weight. So they attach it to like, oh, if I want to look like that's what I need too. So I can imagine this fake 14 year old they made up going, oh, I saw on social media, this influencer I'm following put like, hey, they're 5, 10, 2. That's how much they put their weight as a hundred. So I want to look like them. This is why I chose that goal. That's scary to me to think like these arbitrary numbers and these things that people have in their minds of, oh, that's attainable. That's achievable and I want that too, because someone else put it out there. [JESSICA] And I think it's important to realize, even if me and you were the same weight and I'm like, Dr. Cino looks amazing, I want to look like her. How much do you weigh? Okay, that's going to be my goal. My body at the end of the day is still very different than your body. So even though you look great and whatever number it is, and I want to have that number, I might never look like you because my body is different from yours. So it's very scary to go on Instagram or whatever social media platform you use. Sometimes they do put, this is what I eat in a day. They put their weight and the calories and things like that but some of them actually are more transparent now. They're saying they have a disclaimer, but this is for my body, what's good for me. Everybody's different. I appreciate that, but not a lot of them are. So if we're not really educated on it and we see it and I'm younger, I might be like, okay, I'm going to write this down. This is what I have to have today. This is what I have to do. She's having these amount of calories today. She looks like that. Then that's definitely going to be for me, but that's not true. [DR. CRISTINA] Or even if they're just following somebody and they don't put what they eat in a day, but they're going, oh, I want to look like that. This is somebody who's my same height. That's what they put as their weight. I want to know how to look like that. They might go on an app like the one I just talked about, or one of the other 13 that are on here and go, okay, I'm going to plug in these numbers. These are my goals. Now I'm going to follow this because that's how I'm going to get there. As I'm looking at this, this again, very scary, I'm thinking, what is this going to do to the physical health and wellbeing and emotional wellbeing of this person? [JESSICA] It's scary. And even bigger picture, we all have to ask ourselves. Sometimes it's a hard question to answer, because I know it's still hard for me, why do we want to be at this number? Why do we think at this number, we will feel good about ourselves? It's still taking, I'm still putting the work in mentally to try to understand just because I think I have to be at this weight doesn't mean that I'm only worthy at this weight and it doesn't matter. I feel like, I think it was on the episode, the one that we recorded last time. It was so interesting. Or it was one of the episodes I listened to that you had, if you're at dinner and someone's like, oh my gosh, you look great, like you said, you think that that would make you feel better, but then also it could be like, okay, well they said, I looked great. Did I not look great last time? But then if I look great, now I have to stay like this or then I won't be great next time. So then it just, all these ideas and thoughts are swirling around in your head and then it just becomes a vicious cycle. I think these apps know that and that's why they're further adding and fueling our insecurities. [DR. CRISTINA] That's a great point because then it's like your value and becomes based on your external, because here's the other thing, let's say you get that like compliment or whatever you want to call it, comments, when you have "hit your goal." What is the message there? It's like, oh, I finally reached my goal. People are telling me, I look great. Now I've got to stay here. But what if in order to get there, you really had to white neck lit and struggle and your whole life was consumed with following this horribly regimented and probably very unsustainable lifestyle? Now It's like, okay, I, oh, I've got this compliment. I've got to stay here now. That's going to be the rest of your life. It's not like you can just suddenly let up. I don't know, maybe you can tell me what you have heard from other people or think yourself, but my understanding for most people, and I went through this myself, I thought once I reached that goal, then I can have this great, happy, wonderful life. I can be happy. I'll be like, I'll have arrived, whatever that means, but it's never enough because once you reach it's like the pressure's really on at that point. Now it's like, okay, I got to maintain it. In order to maintain it, I've got to continue living like this. That's not happy. That's not being free. I can't, if I'm saying me at this point, I'm just going to personalize it for a second. If that was me, I don't do this anymore, but if that was me and I achieved my goal, I'd be like, oh, I can't now go to the party. I can't now eat what I want. I can't go to a restaurant or whatever I want or not think about food. Now it's even worse. [JESSICA] You hit the nail on the head because interestingly enough, I think it was maybe October, November. I was just under a lot of stress. So I weighed myself and I guess, no matter what I was eating, I guess it just wasn't sticking. I was a lot lighter than I am now. Probably, and I'm sorry, like you were saying for anything is triggering for anyone with numbers. I am 5'7, and I was not really at a healthy weight. It was just all because of stress. I was 15 pounds lighter than I am now. So I do thank my fitness power for giving me the tool, to be more aware of, it is a good app in the sense of it's being more aware. So I was not eating also because I was very stressed out. So My Fitness Pal was reminding me, Jessica, you didn't eat today as much as you should have. You need to eat. So I think it's good in that aspect. But like you said, now, thank God I am 15 pounds heavier. I feel more at peace with things going on in my life. So the number, yes, well, the number is more attached to me feeling like I did something for myself and I'm trying to be healthy and be more aware of eating more when I'm stressed. Like you said, now I feel pressure. Oh my gosh, I have to stay at this weight because even when I'm at work, people are like, oh my gosh, Jessica, you used to look so sick. Again, I'm like, I don't even know why people feel like it's appropriate to just say what they want. They're like, you looked sick, but you look so great now. We were talking about it before and you just look great. I'm just like, thank you, I appreciate it. But now I'm like, okay, that means I didn't look great before, I need to maintain this. Last weekend, actually I was sick and I was nervous about missing the gym and I was stressed about not hitting my calories. So I'm like, what if I miss it? Then I'm going to lose weight. Then I'm going to lose more weight and then I'm going to look sick again. People are going to say stuff. So you're right. You have to really find that balance that you are worthy, whether you are this weight or this weight, and you need to really be at peace with who you are as a person, because our body is only, I feel like one, 1000th of who we are as a person. There's so much more to us on the inside. I try to remind myself when I'm 90 years old with the help of God, if I'm still here, people aren't going to be like, oh my gosh, Jessica look so great. That's it. It's like, no, Jessica was a nice person. She was caring. She was sweet. Dr. Cristina's a great person. She's a great listener. She's so fun and she's creative. There's so much more to us and I feel like we have to try to learn that now, because otherwise we're like just wasting all our time with this too. [DR. CRISTINA] You mean you'll be great not going to say like Jessica survived at X weight at this size. I'm not going to say --- [JESSICA] That's such a good point. If we ever need advice, I feel like we should always, I love speaking to elderly people because they really just put it all in perspective. They're always like, I wish I did this. So I feel like I try to really do what they say, because they've been in that and they wish they could change some things. And you're right. When you have your obituary, it's not going to say your height, your weight, the calories you had to put in. It's not going to say any of that. It doesn't mention that at all. It mentions who you are as a person. [DR. CRISTINA] I do have to say something like, I think you're so refreshing because you totally bring to mind the whole point here that comments about somebody's appearance and weight, it doesn't matter if somebody's feeling like those comments are inappropriate, for whatever reason. Because I think most people would be like, gosh I never really thought that if somebody was looking sickly or underweight or felt underweight or wanted to gain weight, that that would be a bother to them to get comments about how they looked. But because I think a lot of people probably listening to are going, oh, I wish I had Jessica's problem. I could just hear it on their head. But that's the whole point. It doesn't matter what you look like on the outside. It doesn't matter what you weigh. It doesn't matter your size if you are putting so much of your value and self worth on how you look on the outside and saying that matters more than anything else. Because when you get the comments, think about what that does to you. [JESSICA] A hundred percent. That that's a good point because, of course people will probably not understand. They're like, oh, what is it like to gain weight? I totally get that because I also don't know what it's like on the other side to not be able to lose weight and feel that stress. So I can't imagine when people go through that, what they feel like also. But I think the common theme, which you were trying to tie between the both, which I think is great is whatever weight you are, if you're not comfortable with it and people make comments, you feel a pressure to change it and then when you do stay at that weight, you feel a pressure to maintain it. If you don't then what is the outcome? People will start saying things. But then I try to challenge myself and I'm like, if people say things, then that's really just a reflection off of them. I feel like people comment because it's bringing back stuff that they feel about themselves. Or some of your friends really might care about you and they'll be like, are you okay because some people knew I wasn't in the best mental state and they're like, well, you don't look okay. How do you feel inside? I appreciated that much more because then we went deeper into it rather than just the physical, I rather go into the inside because that's more important. [DR. CRISTINA] Well said. Well, you and I could talk for hours and I know people probably don't want to listen to us talk for hours, but I mean you and I could. So as we were talking and all this came up and just wondering for listeners, do you have any final thoughts or things that you really hope people walk away thinking about? [JESSICA] I would say that, as a consumer, because obviously I'm not the expert you are. I really appreciate it. I love this conversation because I think as an expert, it's good to go through the apps and try to figure out which one is better and which one is not so great. But as a consumer, I would say just try not to be like so focused and fixated on the app. At the end of the day, the app is the app and we are controlling it. It is not controlling us. So yes, you could use it as a guide and here and there, but when it takes over your life and you tie your worth to it, then I feel like that's not the best thing for you. So that's my advice to everyone. I'm still going to use My Fitness Pal, but I'm not really going to be on top of it and I'm going to feel okay if I don't hit my calories and I want everyone to feel okay with that too. It's a guide. It's not meant to be strictly followed and if you don't, then you're not a good person or something like that. So that's my advice to everybody. [DR. CRISTINA] I wish I could get you off the app, but I'm going to let you be. [JESSICA] Maybe if we get off the episode, you're going to try to get me off, but that's okay. [DR. CRISTINA] I'll get off my suit box. But I do think be cautious about these apps. Like I said, from what I'm seeing, a lot of it's very scary and just promoting more eating disordered thoughts and more, what do I want to say, it's not helping people psychologically and I think it's doing more harm than good or they are doing more harm than good. So that's my 2 cents about them. But I appreciate your candor and your opinion about it too. I think people do have, they're going to do what they're going do, but I do think it's worth us continuing to have conversations about things that are out there because well, they are, they're out there. We need to have open dialogue about all these things. [JESSICA] I agree. Thank you so much for having me on. This was all good. I'm sure I'll come on again, but this was really, really good. Like you said, we just have to keep having the conversations and if we can reach one person, I feel like we did something really, really good then. [DR. CRISTINA] Definitely. Well, thank you again. Like you said, I'm sure we'll have Jessica on again at some point and have more discussion about something very entertaining. So thank you again, Jessica. [JESSICA] I would love to [DR. CRISTINA] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.