[DR. CRISTINA CASTAGNINI] Behind The Bite podcast is part of a network of podcasts that are good for the world. Check out podcasts like the Full of Shift podcast, After the First Marriage podcast and Eating Recovery Academy over at practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to Behind The Bite podcast. This podcast is about the real-life struggles women face with food, body image and weight. We're here to help you inspire and create better healthier lives. Welcome. Well, hello everyone. In my practice, I cannot tell you how people have come in over the years and had no idea that they could just say no to someone when they were asked to do a favor or simply stop doing something, just because they've always done it. And they've done it mostly because they felt obligated to do it, or somehow convinced themselves of some faulty belief, like if they didn't do it, nobody else would. Or told themselves it's just easier to do it because other people don't know how to do it the right way. They would end up not liking how it was done so they'd have to end up doing it anyway. Or even worse they would be afraid to say that they could not do something because then others would be disappointed, angry, or even not like them. They might even feel guilty or selfish if they said no, or did something for themselves, instead of doing something for others. Likewise, I've had a number of people struggling with letting go of the need to be and do everything perfect. Now this is especially true with many people who have disordered eating, eating disorders or body image issues, just chasing perfection. If they don't look at, then they're a failure and if they have not achieved it, then it's their fault. Some even believe that they can only be truly happy once they look perfect or their whole day revolves around following all of their eating disorder, rules and rituals to perfection. One slip or minor deviation can lead to extreme anxiety and an entire day feeling off. If you can relate to any of what I just said, then today's show is just for you and our guest today is here to discuss more about the struggles people have in regard to people pleasing, perfectionism and setting and maintaining clear healthy boundaries. This is not a show to miss. Ryan Linder is a personal development specialist who has worked as a behavioral coach for clients and top organizations all over the world. After two sudden unexplained cardiac arrests at a young age, he began to explore different perspectives with clients that come with any profound life changing event. He has conducted thousands of coaching sessions, has led operations for major leadership and organizational change company and manages learning and development projects for companies to reshape their customer experience. Ryan, welcome to the show. [RYAN LINDNER] Oh, thanks for having me. Excited to chat. [DR. CRISTINA] So I really love having you on, because you do have some experience that I think a lot of the guests listening today can relate to, but you also have a topic that I'm really excited to get into as well. So just wondering, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself so the listeners can get to know you? [RYAN] Yes, I would love to. I've been a coach for almost 20 years. I specialize in transitions, so a lot of identity issues. As an example, someone's going through a retirement, they've been in the same career, like a soldier for 30 years, and then they go through this well, who am I after I'm a soldier? You're still you. You were a you before you were a soldier and you'll be you after you're a soldier. I work with a lot of those transitional issues. I also work a lot with busyness and I'm sure a lot of people can relate sort of on that to-do list and helping people get unstuck. I've done thousands and thousands of sessions, did about 6,000 sessions for the military. After I worked with individuals I started working with organizations and retraining their employees to positively affect company culture and wellness and reduce turnover and things like that. So it's all about change and helping people through that. [DR. CRISTINA] Personally, I know you can relate to some of the listeners as well, which I think is always interesting when I have guests on here who can kind of relate a little bit to what the podcast I have is about. I don't know if you're comfortable sharing a little bit about your journey with that as well. [RYAN] Sure. Yes, growing up, I am introverted, almost off the chart, like on the Myers Briggs. I was always very dominant. Most of my clients out of the thousands of clients I've done, they would never guess it though, because I'm not shy. I know there's a difference between introversion and shyness, but always very quiet natured, always introverted. I grew up with just crushing anxiety, people pleaser. I had a ton of image issues, had an eating disorder myself and I think as a male, it was harder to relate because I did know several females with eating disorders, but I actually never knew a male growing up with an eating disorder. I was at times made fun of, and it started with being made fun of for being just slightly overweight. Then it created this being this quiet sort of introverted guy. I just really, I basically stopped eating a lot and I lost just a ton of weight and that cultivated kind of a big addiction to exercise too, because I thought well, it's so hard for me socially that maybe if I am in just phenomenal shape, it was something I could be good at and I could feel good about myself because at least I can control that. And there was a lot of people pleasing as well. Always felt like I had to earn my worth by doing things as my love language as well as acts of service. I always felt like my worth had to be earned in some way and so through my twenties, it was really, I'm in my forties now, I did just whatever I could for people. I thought that would make them like me until I learned how to detach in some way and really pay attention to the dialogue that was going on in my own head. How you think about yourself often manifests in your behaviors and how other people see that. So I had to really get, take care of myself first. Once I started taking care of myself, I was actually better at helping others. [DR. CRISTINA] So interesting. Probably maybe people listening are going, well, how did you figure out you needed to take care of yourself going from like, gosh, I want other people to like me and I need to be something other than what I am to, oh wait, let me focus on me and take care of me? [RYAN] It was tough. I think you go, things get so dark and you just say there's got to be a better way to do this. I was always, and this is why I got into coaching too. It's really that the helping people aspect of it. I found I could relate to, a lot of my 80% of my clientele are female and most of them are just crazy busy, just super busy, stress. A lot of them are parents. I'm a parent as well, but they gravitated towards me. I could relate. I think it's about treating yourself as if you're someone you care about. Most of a lot of us struggling with this, we would never treat someone we love like that. We would never treat a friend like that, but that's the way we speak internally. I think what helped me, sort of the catalyst that allowed me to get out of that was sort of this mindfulness is a hot topic right now, but this was before it was, and it was really, I can't do this anymore. Something's got to give. And what you don't accept, you are saying that you are willing to carry it forever or what you don't address. You're saying you're willing to carry it forever. I just said, yes, I can't do this anymore. I get to choose how I'm going to show up in the world. One big catalyst for me was I had two cardiac arrests and sudden, just sudden and I've seen every specialist, Mayo clinic kind of stuff and I have a pacemaker now. So I was just walking along one day and just dropped. That completely changed the way I think in that when you go through a trauma or you really appreciate what you have, you prioritize your energy differently. So I began to, that's all time management is really, it's just the prioritization of your energy. I just said all the worrying, all the self-talk, all the stuff I went through, I don't have time for that. There was a decision about not only do I not want to be somebody else, but would it be cool if you just loved your introversion? Like a lot of people try to, they spend their whole lives trying to be this other person they think they should be right. But once you own it, once you say, not only again, not only do I, there's nothing to fix, what are the advantages to being you? I have found a lot of advantages to being introverted. Introverted people tend to be more introspective. Sometimes they are not in some cases not as reactive. A lot of times they're good listeners and there are a lot of, so to answer your question, I think it was really putting in perspective what was worth and not worth my time then really looking at what I could be grateful for about myself instead of chasing this version of myself. That really wasn't me, if that makes sense. [DR. CRISTINA] Totally. My goodness, like you said, you had two cardiac arrests? [RYAN] Yes, they were a day apart, but after that, they decided to give me the pacemaker as a little safety net there. [DR. CRISTINA] Well, that must have been very terrifying. It sounds life altering obviously, but yes, just to come out of nowhere and --- [RYAN] Out of nowhere. When I mean nowhere, I mean nowhere. I started my career in wellness, personal training, the exercise and all that. So I ate well, non-smoker, all that, no family history. I just felt a little strange and I looked to a woman standing next to me and I said, I'm going down now. My vision started to close in and I woke up in the ER with people rushing around, like it was from a movie. It was terrifying, but I think it pulled me into the present moment and I became really clear about what is, and is not worth your energy. I think you appreciate things about yourself when you go through that. You appreciate what, you won't be able to move forward unless you own who you are and have gratitude for that person. We're all going through stuff and we're all people. I think once you love that person and there's no one else I'd rather be, but it really does put in perspective for sure. [DR. CRISTINA] I'm curious, because I know there's this, like you said, you didn't have any of these red flags for somebody who would have a heart attack and you're so young still and just seems like shock. There's always this misinformation out there that if you're doing all these "correct things," living this lifestyle that obviously you having a heart attack is quite shocking. So do you think any of that was related to you trying to become this person you thought you should be in the way you were going about your lifestyle, like that may have contributed and so that also brought about some changes in the way you maybe were with your eating disorder or your exercise? [RYAN] That's all crossed my mind and I've again seen all kinds of specialists. Still a little bit of a mystery, but the closest thing they can, they're thinking maybe it's electrical problems, but I don't know if that's what caused it, but I did go down that line of thinking like was the way that I treated myself in the past, did that have any bearing on this? I thought about what was, and was not worth worrying about all those years of anxiety, the years I carried it and most people spend their whole lives living either in the past or the future the past pain they're carrying around, they can't let go or future anxiety. All it took was a decision to say I'm done with that and everything that matters I already have, my family. Again, I think a lot of those symptoms, I would say the anxiety, the things that we're coping for that causes the eating disorder or contributes to it, a lot of that for me, was the result of not knowing my worth, not realizing it, looking for approval in others. I didn't even have my own. That was really eye opening for me. Is it doesn't matter what those people think of you and once you truly own it and appreciate it, a lot of those symptoms dissipate, they really do, the anxiety. I mean, I can get up on stage and talk, and that was something I could never do before, never. Oh God, it would be terrifying, but it's just me not needing that. I don't need the value from other people anymore. I have over the years, worked a lot with people on boundaries and it is, I know there's this a lot of times guilty feeling when people, maybe some listeners who can relate to you're a people pleaser perhaps, and you feel like that's how I earn my value. But what you find is that if you take care of yourself first, it's like what they tell you on an airplane, if you take the oxygen first, then you help others because otherwise you're part of the chaos. So if you take good care of yourself, you, and I've seen this with many, many, many, many clients, if you take care of yourself and be your best self, you will be better for other people. You will. But your own wellness, how good are you going to be helping other people if you are struggling like that? [DR. CRISTINA] That's the interesting part because I think people will kind of like, oh no, like if I put myself first, I'm selfish or well, how can I possibly take time to go do X, Y, or Z for me when this person needs this or my kids need this or there's this going on? I'll feel guilty or I'll feel selfish, like not possible. There's not enough time. [RYAN] I think that comes from being secure in who you are in your own self talk. It's okay if you can't do something and you know what, you can give people permission not to like it. That's okay too. But once it's detached from your value, how people feel about it has no bearing on my value because you can't please everybody. There's been a lot of times in my life where I tried to please people and it didn't work. Then I'd be like, well was I not good enough? Like I tried so hard to please people and they're still not happy with me. I realized quickly that you really don't have any control over how other people feel about you and some people aren't going to like you, no matter what you do. But you have to ask yourself, and this is the way I think, I think things through very like logically, what does it really matter if someone dislikes you or what does it really matter? It doesn't. You're still you whether you were able to please them or not, but yes, it's still a journey. I mean, it's still a journey. I think it's just being constantly aware of how you're talking to yourself. [DR. CRISTINA] So that, I mean, that's an interesting concept of sometimes people will say I need people to like me, that's my whole purpose is I take care of everyone else. You're talking about transitions, like how to transition out of maybe that identity of being the person that does everything for everyone else, or is the go-to person. You work with people on how to stop being that and realizing like you can have another purpose in people's lives or maybe you're teaching people to treat you that way because you're always saying yes and always sacrificing and they're not really getting to know you're just there to do for everybody. [RYAN] Yes, I do encounter that a lot as well is most people think they're a role or they try to be a role and not a person. Every day we're roles all day long. You're a parent one moment and you're you're going to work and you're, whatever it is, the next a manager or whatever your job is. We spend our whole life trying to be this role. Then we realize our value never comes from that role. That is the culture that we're in. I mean, if you meet somebody, the first thing they tell you is, or the first thing they ask is, so what do you do? Or you ask about someone and they give you their resume. Nope, that's not you either. That's about you. That's not who you are. Who you are transcends all that. Who you are is beyond those roles. So what you can do with other people is you can be a person. That shifts it from being transactional to more interactional, to where you're present with them. That's all you have to do. That's all you have to do. When I've worked with clients on boundaries and identity and those types of things, it's really about exploring, okay, well, what does it mean to, who am I? What does that mean? What is my purpose? Even if you think your purpose is helping people. I've worked with a lot of nurses for example, and they'll say, "Well, I love being a nurse because I can help people. That's my purpose. My purpose is to be a nurse." No, the nurse is a role. It's what you do in that role. That's an extension of who you are. You could help people without the role. You can help people. That's who you are. That's an extension of who you are. If you're on a deserted island, are you still a nurse? No, that was a role that you've lived in your life. And there's lots of exercises we do, but it's really about stopping the chatter, the noise and being present in their daily lives and being honest with themselves about what they can actually do and what they cannot do. Because if something doesn't help you, it hurts. If you are overextended all the time it's like a balloon, you blow up and you blow up. It's going to blow out at the weakest point. That's what happens when you're overextended all the time. There's no recovery and eventually something's got to give. So it's about getting honest about what you can do and what you can't do. If you were honest about that, then you can say if people don't like it, and I've been honest with them, I give them permission not to like it. I'm okay with that because I'm honest with myself, and I'm honest with other people, and I'm going to be a better person because of it. I'm going to help people. I'm going to help them better because of it, [DR. CRISTINA] You bring up a great point, too, people don't like you, or they're angry with you because you set a boundary for yourself to take care of yourself. You really have to wonder, like, are those healthy people to have in your life? Why would you want them in your life? [RYAN] That's a fantastic point. I think it's a revealer. If someone cared about the real you, and not just the role, if they're treating you like a means to an end of some type and they need something from you, then they didn't care about you to begin with. But people you love and that love your friends, your family, they're going to understand. I've had several people and I'm sure other people can relate as well, yes, they weren't happy because I was honest but do they care about, it's why people leave jobs. They feel like they're, companies, a lot of times hire roles and not people. That's why a lot of people quit. That's one thing I've done is I track turnover for companies and determine why that's occurring. I retrain them, retrain their leadership and it's all about realizing that these are people and you have to connect with them as individuals and not just treat them like roles. So yes, I mean, if people, you're absolutely right, if people care and they're people worth having it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay and they're going to love you anyway. You don't need to earn your worth. [DR. CRISTINA] For anyone listening, other who's really struggling and they can't imagine saying no or they can't imagine not feeling guilty for saying, they're listening this going, yes, that sounds great but no, like, yes, but kind of thing. Do you have any suggestions or words for them that might get them on a different path? [RYAN] I have found it. It all starts with your internal dialogue and how you feel about yourself because that's always going to reflect to other people. I recommend you plug in and find something that works for you to some sort of, it could be meditation. It could be something that keeps you still because what's happened is you've developed habits over a period of years and it's not, there's nothing I could tell you that would be an on, off switch that would, you could wake up tomorrow and it's going to take again, you've had years of these habits of the self-dialogue that you didn't realize was going on. It took a commitment. A lot of my clients experienced this. I've experienced this where I really had to plug in every day and show up and show up for myself every day. There were, it could be an audio exercise, maybe it was meditation, maybe it was just stillness. Maybe it was just sitting for 10 minutes, it's something. I tried to get in the habit of just being aware, just awareness, not even stopping, but just being aware of how I was thinking. Then eventually I was able to detach from it is almost as if it wasn't me talking in my head like that. I would look at it and say, oh, there I go again. There I go again. Am I talking about anything that is true or am I just, a lot of people, oh something didn't work or they failed in something or they made a mistake and go oh, I'm a loser. I can't do that. It's all that talk. I started to ask myself, does this help, or does it hurt? What's true about what I'm saying? Or am I just going off on a tangent or is it just the noise, but you first got to be aware of it. Once you get in the habit of doing that and you go almost like you're not even taking it seriously, like there I go again with the internal dialogue and I don't believe it that's just a habit. It took a daily practice. Journaling has been helpful. For a long time, I did workbooks as well, and I can recommend some, but it's really generating the awareness first because if the awareness isn't there again, you've had this habit for years and years and years and years, and most people, sometimes their whole lives, they're not aware of it. [DR. CRISTINA] I don't know about you, when I had my eating disorder, my mind was so occupied with all my eating disorder, thoughts. I didn't even have the ability to access what I was really thinking underneath all that. It was a great distractor when I was just focusing on all the, what I needed to eat. Couldn't eat, feeling guilty, fitting in the ritual, the routines, the whole feeling bad about myself. Like all the eating disorder talk was so loud and kind of masked it all that what was underneath there when that all cleared up was, needed to be accessed. I don't know if you found that too, but that was very interesting work. [RYAN] That's a good point. I would say a lot of the people I've worked with and myself included in my past, there's a lot of people who struggle with this. They have perfectionism and so their expectations are so high. If they don't meet those, then it gets worse and it's a repeating cycle. So a lot of the clients I've seen who've been successful they treat it, it's just a shift in how you think about it and how you approach it. I had a lot of success with treating everything like an experiment, and every day is a redo. Every day is a redo. Again, it's that internal dialogue. So if I don't get something perfect today, that's cool. Let's try go again tomorrow and again and again, unlimited re-dos and give yourself that grace. How would you help a friend or a family member struggling with this? You would give them a lot more grace, a lot more grace than you would give yourself. So again, treat yourself as if you're a person you care about. For me, it was okay, I don't care if this takes me, it's unlimited, unlimited re-dos, give myself that grace and I no longer care if I get it perfect. It's about progress. It's about putting one foot in front of the other, because when we're perfectionist, a lot of times we're like, I got to do it a hundred percent now and get it right. But you're going to see results long before. You don't have to get it perfect. You just have to get it going and show up. You just have to show up every day and that's all you have to do. But I think it's just, yes, you're right, just a shift, I think in the way you look at it. [DR. CRISTINA] Yes. I often hear people say, oh, if I'm not mean to myself in my mind, if I don't beat myself up, then I'm not. That's why I do things so well, because I'm so hard on myself. That motivates me to do well. If I'm nice to myself, I'll just be mediocre. I'll fail. I'll kind of just be like, eh, you can do whatever you want and then I won't be as successful or as good as I have been. That's what's kept me like, so whatever, high achieving. I don't know if you've ever heard people say that, but I hear that all the time. I can't get rid of my critic. That's what keeps me going. So it keeps me at this high level. [RYAN] I've seen that. My experience is that a lot of those people are chasing happiness and approval outside themselves. It's always fleeting that way. If you're chasing, it's like being the role. If we're always trying to chase this validation outside of ourselves, lots people have that. I've worked with, they're certainly high achievers, but it's all about, it's on paper. They've got accolades, maybe certifications, degrees, all this stuff. They think all that makes them who they are. Most of those people at some point or another realize that was not true, even though, I mean, are they high achievers? Yes. But anything external, it eventually does fall away because you, and you are also relying on circumstances to be happy. Happiness is just like a state of mind. It's just circumstances align right now and they make me feel good about my life. But they don't, it's always temporary. It's always fleeting. Once something goes wrong or they don't achieve something, then that dialogue starts again. So even if they feel like, yes, that keeps me going, I've found them deep down, they go through this where it's like, they go through feelings of, I feel really good about myself. Then when they don't, it's really bad. So it's like a roller coaster up and down for years. Yes, it's never lasting in my experience. Peace and happiness are two different things. I feel like happiness, maybe a state of mind, but peace is really that feeling of, I am enough now and I don't need any of that stuff to get there. [DR. CRISTINA] Great, that would be for most people to be in just to accept themselves and be feeling or to have that sense of I'm good enough right now as I am. [RYAN] Yes, and dealing a lot. Well, personally, as well, in trauma a lot of trauma does something to us. It pulls us into the moment. None of us have problems when we're in the ICU. I mean, the problem is in the ICU, but I'm not thinking about all the to-do list. I got to mow the grass. I got to pick up, I'm not thinking about that in the ICU. When people have maybe a loved one pass away or get in a car accident, what that does is it forces them to stop and look within. Even some of those high achievers, they realize, whoa, I'm not thinking about those achievements. When I'm sitting in the ICU. Then they ask the question possibly for the first time, which is what really matters . If you ask people what really matters in their life, most of them will intellectually say, then they'll understand it. My family matters and all that, but they don't reflect it in their daily life. So what I try to work with people on is, okay, let's not wait for a trauma to get really clear about what's going on. Let's think that way now. Again, if it doesn't come from within your gratitude, your worth, it will be fleeting for you. It will be fleeting. So I think, again, it's just about showing up. It's not going to happen overnight. It's just about showing up every day, finding what works for you. It could be still time, it could be a meditation, something that allows you to be present and inform that habit. [DR. CRISTINA] You've given lots of great information here. I'm sure people listening would be like, okay, so if I want to work with Ryan or talk more about him or find you. How can they do that? [RYAN LINDNER] They go to my website rslindner.com, L I N D N E R. Or they can go to my book website, which is halfknownlifebook.com and all my social media links are connected in there. I don't actually do one on one coaching anymore. It's mostly groups. But my book really delves into the, we can't see ourselves a concept and really exploring the purpose of your life is to explore your life. That's the purpose. It's not to be a role. It is to explore the question about who you are. It's to fully explore that person. [DR. CRISTINA] All that information will be on the show notes, of course. So head on over to the website and I'll have all that information there. I don't know if there's any other materials or things you could guide people toward if they're interested. [RYAN] Sure, if they're interested, I can also, if they mention you and your podcast, I can get them a free audio book as well if they would like. [DR. CRISTINA] Thank you. That's very generous. Any last words before we end? I know you said so many great, wonderful things but if there's any last words before we end the show? [RYAN] I would say, just take it a day at a time. Love yourself. One day things will be clear and appreciate what is great about yourself. There is something very unique and very great about it and just keep showing up. That's it. That's all it takes. You just show up every day. That's it. [DR. CRISTINA] Ryan, thank you so much for sharing all your personal information and all of this great information with the show and to our listeners. Thank you so much. [RYAN] My pleasure. Thanks for having me. [DR. CRISTINA] This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.